How to Make Life-Like NPC's with Robert from Dungeons, Dragons & Psychology

lewis]: 00:00:03

all right to welcome back to how to be a better d m we have

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with us robert here and well you'll hear a little bit more about him in

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a second but first robert to help us all get warmed up what is your

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done master avatar and kind of explain that a little bit if you had to

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create a d and character that personifies how you d

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a

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m

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oh

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what would that character look

[robert]: 00:00:26

well

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like

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yeah

[robert]: 00:00:27

i would say it's going to have to be probably a bard

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oh

[robert]: 00:00:31

because i do like to be a story teller

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oh

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oh

[robert]: 00:00:33

in my d ming but it's also probably going to be a trickster for sure

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ah

[robert]: 00:00:38

because one of my very favorite

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yeah

[robert]: 00:00:40

things to do is

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m

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a d m

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yeah

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m yeah

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is to incorporate

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yeah

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a pretty brutal plot twist at some point so it's going to be a tricky

[robert]: 00:00:47

bard hopefully i would say

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oh

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it's carismatic i at least like to look

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oh

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in the mirror most of the time and say hey yeah you're doing pretty good

[robert]: 00:00:54

you know but

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hm

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oh

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not always not every day

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oh

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if nothing else he at least is decent with void is

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ah

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and he can weave an interesting story now this is the type of bard that

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is not great on an instrument but he definitely carries them around just to make

[robert]: 00:01:10

people think that he could be

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i love

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i

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it

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like it i

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it's

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like

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also

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it

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very true

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that's

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to

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awesome

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most d ms where it's like the players don't realize

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yeah

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how much we

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yeah

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don't know what we're doing

[robert]: 00:01:23

oh

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but they love it regardless

[robert]: 00:01:25

absolutely

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oh

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fake it till you make it is like the motto of every g

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okay

[robert]: 00:01:29

m i think

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exactly

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yeah definitely you want to keep up that curtain and tell people don't pay attention

[robert]: 00:01:37

i've said

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yeah

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to the

[robert]: 00:01:37

that

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man

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many

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behind

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times

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the curtain

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at the table so i absolutely agree with that

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yea

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oh oh

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i love it one quick follow up question on that but what would you say

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has been one of the most brutal plot twists you've pulled

[robert]: 00:01:53

yeah

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on your

[robert]: 00:01:53

so

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players

[robert]: 00:01:54

i've actually talked about this recently with one of the players who was involved in

[robert]: 00:01:57

this game on my show and early on in a home brew game that i

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ran that we call threads of the desert i had asked

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oh

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one of the other players

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oh

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to be the big bad evil guy but to play through the entire

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oh

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game with the party

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oh

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and we had this this one session

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oh

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where the three party members and there like there

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oh

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forever n p c who was traveling with them were in this room where they

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figured it out and they figured

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oh

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it out right at the same time

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my

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as he stabbed the n p c in the back and murdered her

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oh

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and so all of a sudden

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yeah

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we went from four member party

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yeah

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to

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uh

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a two member party

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uh

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and they realized the person that they've been

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yeah

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sharing all of their plots with all of their plans with everything that they were

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going to do to

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oh

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bring down the big bad evil guy was now invalid and yet they still had

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oh

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to go face him in his palace next session so

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i love it

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they were swearing at me a lot at the end of that

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oh

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but

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oh

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it ended up being probably one of our most memorable game moments ever

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wow that that's huge

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that

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so

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is

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then

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awesome

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so so i'm very curious about that when you asked that player to essentially be

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the big bad like did it take some convincing or a lot of like walking

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throg or was he just a gun how

[robert]: 00:03:18

you know

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yeah

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like me he's a trickster um

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m

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and he was definitely in it a hundred percent and he was like well can

[robert]: 00:03:25

i you know can i build the character myself can i do all this and

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i pretty much gave him like

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yeah

[robert]: 00:03:30

blanche

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m

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permission to okay you're going

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yeah

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to be a twentieth level character by the time they finally face you at the

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end you're going to have

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yeah

[robert]: 00:03:37

two levels in divine rank we were using the three point five deities and demigod

[robert]: 00:03:42

so

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yeah

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you could actually build out characters that had divine rank and

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now

[robert]: 00:03:46

then he took it and run with it he built it he built himself as

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an avatar and that's what was playing with the characters

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oh

[robert]: 00:03:52

was his avatar

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m

[robert]: 00:03:55

and

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yeah

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oh

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so then as they go to face

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yeah

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off him is he's an even more powerful version

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yeah

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of the character that had been traveling with them

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that's awesome

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wow that is that is super cool i bet you picked specifically him because he's

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a trixter and that probably went very much in line with

[robert]: 00:04:15

you

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what

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need

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you

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a

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look

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trickster

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for

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and

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right

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somebody who's willing to you know stick to the story and keep a secret and

[robert]: 00:04:21

he's always kind of been that guy at the table who doesn't really like to

[robert]: 00:04:24

share too much about his character anyways

weyland]: 00:04:25

m

[robert]: 00:04:26

so it fit really well with him

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ah

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m so how long

lewis]: 00:04:30

ah

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how many sessions

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i love it

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did he have to play

[robert]: 00:04:32

m

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that role

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quite

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before

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a while

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was figured out

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we we pretty much play a weekly game every week and i think it was

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over a year into the game before the reveal

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oh

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finally happened

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oh

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that's that's

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yeah

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incredible

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yahchesthat

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love that

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is amazing tanner do you want to ask the second warm up question and then

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i will introduce

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yes

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our guest

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um so aside from that awesome moment you just had right there do you have

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um

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any other favorite

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yeah

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d m moments just from your time

[robert]: 00:05:04

yeah for other d m moments i think one of the one of the coolest

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things

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okay

[robert]: 00:05:10

that i had done was i wrote this adventure path for my characters and it

[robert]: 00:05:15

was very much lowing along the lines of the pathfinder adventure paths it was like

[robert]: 00:05:18

a similar to a d and d moduale um

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yeah

[robert]: 00:05:21

and i wrote this whole thing as a murder mystery um and that was like

[robert]: 00:05:26

probably one of the most difficult things in terms of writing because you have to

[robert]: 00:05:31

think about all the clues and making them

lewis]: 00:05:34

oh

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obvious enough that the players will move

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yeah

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on to the next clue but also

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ah

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not so obvious that they're going to figure it out right from the very beginning

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and having that last session of that where they finally figure out who the killer

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was

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yeah

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and had that final confrontation was a really cool went for me just because it

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was like oh yeah i wrote it properly and it didn't give it away before

[robert]: 00:05:55

the final moment and it still led them to where

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yeah

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i wanted

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oh

[robert]: 00:05:58

them to end up

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oh

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the in the when i came up with the idea so seeing like that whole

[robert]: 00:06:05

big thing

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oh

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come together and work out the way that i wanted it to was like a

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really proud personal moment

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yeah

[robert]: 00:06:14

m

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i would be proud of that too because mysteries are so hard i have

[robert]: 00:06:17

oh

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no idea how people write them

[robert]: 00:06:19

it

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let

[robert]: 00:06:19

is

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alone

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definitely the hardest

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you know

[robert]: 00:06:20

hardest piece of writing i've had to do as a d m just because there

[robert]: 00:06:23

were so many moving parts

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yeah and unlike a writer

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yeah

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of a book where you're like oh i can go through it a few times

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to make sure it's could as a d m you're like okay i've got this

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idea players are going

lewis]: 00:06:36

oh

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to screw it up

[robert]: 00:06:37

hm

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opera and with from that base line

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oh

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and then

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m

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yeah get on you snap

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that's really interesting being a d m is kind of this balancing act because on

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one hand it's writing but on the other hand it's experiential well it's like experienced

[robert]: 00:06:56

right

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curation i guess it's it's similar to like event planning and that you know you

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plan certain things but some things might go off without a hitch of other things

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might go one

[robert]: 00:07:06

that's

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way or

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a good

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the other

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way to

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so

[robert]: 00:07:07

look at it as

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that that's really interesting

[robert]: 00:07:08

an event

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and actually

[robert]: 00:07:08

planner

lewis]: 00:07:09

oh

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never thought of that

[robert]: 00:07:11

yeah

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like that love

lewis]: 00:07:12

yeah

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that

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yeah well my friend is like he was talking to me and he's like you

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know i think i might be interested in event planning and i was like maybe

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that's kind of how being a d m is because we're like hotel staff for

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these

[robert]: 00:07:25

hm

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players that come to our hotel and and then were like hear the activities and

lewis]: 00:07:31

you know maybe they don't like

[robert]: 00:07:31

i mean

lewis]: 00:07:31

it

[robert]: 00:07:31

i

lewis]: 00:07:31

or

[robert]: 00:07:31

guess

lewis]: 00:07:31

whatever

[robert]: 00:07:32

it's true

lewis]: 00:07:32

i know

[robert]: 00:07:32

like you're thinking about all the

lewis]: 00:07:33

but

[robert]: 00:07:33

different elements that go into what a player wants in a game and then you're

[robert]: 00:07:38

trying to figure out how to make all of those elements happen in

weyland]: 00:07:41

oh

[robert]: 00:07:41

the same game at the same time i mean bringing all of those components together

[robert]: 00:07:45

so i think it's a perfect analogy

weyland]: 00:07:49

h

lewis]: 00:07:50

well

weyland]: 00:07:50

m

lewis]: 00:07:50

thank you i'll have to write it down so i can seem

[robert]: 00:07:52

uh

lewis]: 00:07:52

smart some other time when i bring it back up

[robert]: 00:07:54

uh

lewis]: 00:07:55

but thank you adventurer for coming back and listening to how to be a better

lewis]: 00:07:59

d m like i said we're here with robert w who is one of the

lewis]: 00:08:02

hosts if i understood from the dungeons dragons and psychology podcast and we are lucky

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to have him here with us talking today about n p cs and making life

lewis]: 00:08:13

like p c and how that is all done and i think you brought up

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one particular topic kind of in your first experience that you shared with us that

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of having an forever n p c with your group and i think that's probably

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a really good place to start because if you have a forever n p c

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with your group they naturally have to be somewhat life

[robert]: 00:08:38

hm

lewis]: 00:08:38

like in order to feel like another member of the party because they wouldn't be

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there if you didn't want them to have some sort of emotional connection to all

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the players so what are some things you do

weyland]: 00:08:48

m

lewis]: 00:08:48

to really make it so forever n pss aren't just someone

[robert]: 00:08:53

uh

lewis]: 00:08:53

that the party makes fun of like

weyland]: 00:08:54

m

lewis]: 00:08:54

happens

[robert]: 00:08:54

yeah

lewis]: 00:08:54

sometimes and certain people's group so m not i'm not saying mine but some some

[robert]: 00:08:59

i

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groups

[robert]: 00:08:59

think

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out there

[robert]: 00:09:00

excuse me i think those are important to like the m p s that can

[robert]: 00:09:02

play comic relief for tense moments in game but i

lewis]: 00:09:06

yeah

[robert]: 00:09:06

do think one of the most important things about having good mpcsis making them name

lewis]: 00:09:12

m

[robert]: 00:09:13

you're your players come to

lewis]: 00:09:14

oh

[robert]: 00:09:15

the table with back stories and ideas of what their life was before and i

[robert]: 00:09:19

think that's a really important piece

lewis]: 00:09:20

m

[robert]: 00:09:21

of an m p c like if they are just

lewis]: 00:09:23

oh

[robert]: 00:09:23

very too dimensional maybe you have a voice for them and a place for them

[robert]: 00:09:27

to exist that doesn't really give your players a lot

lewis]: 00:09:31

oh

[robert]: 00:09:32

of depth into

lewis]: 00:09:33

ah

[robert]: 00:09:33

what that character is and it doesn't really make them that interesting to engage in

[robert]: 00:09:37

if they have quirks and personality traits and they have a back story and they

[robert]: 00:09:43

can tell you stories about their past and things that they've experienced if they feel

[robert]: 00:09:49

like a real person in the way that you would engage with a real person

[robert]: 00:09:52

that's going to be what makes them very interesting and also

lewis]: 00:09:55

oh

[robert]: 00:09:55

if they have something that they something that is important to the party that they

[robert]: 00:10:01

provide so be it a service like it's somebody that they come to

lewis]: 00:10:06

oh

[robert]: 00:10:06

for magical exchanges or even if

lewis]: 00:10:08

oh

[robert]: 00:10:08

it is just a little bit of brevity

lewis]: 00:10:09

ah

[robert]: 00:10:09

and they've had a hard time and like oh let's go kick it

lewis]: 00:10:12

oh

[robert]: 00:10:12

with you know our good friend the bug bear down at the tavern who always

[robert]: 00:10:16

you know buys us around and makes us laugh around the table i think those

[robert]: 00:10:19

kind

lewis]: 00:10:19

a

[robert]: 00:10:20

of things are also really important to

weyland]: 00:10:23

yeah yeah i

[robert]: 00:10:24

oh

weyland]: 00:10:24

like that and especially

lewis]: 00:10:26

yeah

weyland]: 00:10:26

what you were kind of saying about they need to have something

lewis]: 00:10:28

oh

weyland]: 00:10:28

to offer i haven't thought

lewis]: 00:10:31

yeah

weyland]: 00:10:31

about it before

lewis]: 00:10:32

ye

weyland]: 00:10:32

but even with interactions with other people to some extent there is that thing where

weyland]: 00:10:37

you're

[robert]: 00:10:37

mhm

weyland]: 00:10:37

you're interacting with them with the idea that oh they fit the specific role in

weyland]: 00:10:42

my life

[robert]: 00:10:43

right

weyland]: 00:10:44

um and if somebody just doesn't have a role that they fill

lewis]: 00:10:47

yeah

weyland]: 00:10:47

and most often times we don't talk with

lewis]: 00:10:48

oh

weyland]: 00:10:48

those people at all right so it's like it makes it very different if you're

weyland]: 00:10:54

talking to an n p c who's just the guy on the side of the

weyland]: 00:10:56

road versus someone you're actually like oh ever time we talk with him there's a

weyland]: 00:11:00

chance i could get something good

[robert]: 00:11:02

right

weyland]: 00:11:02

and so it just adds a lot more energy to the conversation

[robert]: 00:11:05

when i'm when i'm writing an m p c i always try and think of

[robert]: 00:11:08

several things like what

lewis]: 00:11:09

oh

[robert]: 00:11:10

is something like a speech pattern that they have or

weyland]: 00:11:14

ah

[robert]: 00:11:14

i mean not just in the way that they sound like i might give them

[robert]: 00:11:16

an accent but what

lewis]: 00:11:17

yeah

[robert]: 00:11:18

are things that they frequently say like i have one mpcveron in several games and

[robert]: 00:11:24

he always says well you did hear it from me

lewis]: 00:11:26

m

[robert]: 00:11:27

but and you know that's always like okay we know he's going to be our

[robert]: 00:11:31

our source for rumors right because he's always he's always got that little catch phrase

[robert]: 00:11:36

that oh you didn't hear it from me but here's what i've been hearing on

[robert]: 00:11:40

the streets you know and

weyland]: 00:11:42

xactly

[robert]: 00:11:43

but i

weyland]: 00:11:43

oh

[robert]: 00:11:43

think things like that things that give them a little bit of

weyland]: 00:11:46

h

[robert]: 00:11:46

depth and uniqueness

weyland]: 00:11:47

m oh

[robert]: 00:11:48

and you know each of your m p c it has something that specifically them

[robert]: 00:11:53

they'll always stand out as though they're an individual rather than just oh it's the

[robert]: 00:11:58

same bartender we've always ever had every time we come into a tavern right

lewis]: 00:12:03

m

weyland]: 00:12:03

yeah

lewis]: 00:12:03

h a faceless bartender number two on every tavern right

[robert]: 00:12:07

exactly

weyland]: 00:12:10

well well that's great so

lewis]: 00:12:11

that's funny

weyland]: 00:12:12

here's my question though justin and i were talking about this earlier in preparation and

weyland]: 00:12:17

the original

lewis]: 00:12:18

yeah

weyland]: 00:12:18

concept for this kind of discussion

lewis]: 00:12:19

yeah

weyland]: 00:12:20

was okay how do you make your npcs feel like like my question was do

weyland]: 00:12:25

we do you feel like every n p c needs to feel life like in

weyland]: 00:12:29

a campaign or even just like most of them

[robert]: 00:12:32

i don't think that every n p c needs to feel life like but i

[robert]: 00:12:36

do think every important n p c needs to feel

lewis]: 00:12:39

oh

[robert]: 00:12:39

life like so if they are just you know serving the character a drink it's

[robert]: 00:12:44

i think it's

lewis]: 00:12:45

oh

[robert]: 00:12:45

perfectly fine just to be just to say oh yeah the bartender drops off your

[robert]: 00:12:49

drinks and sets it on your table and ask for his coin whatever you don't

[robert]: 00:12:52

even need to interact with him let the character be ground just like they are

[robert]: 00:12:56

in the movies right but think

weyland]: 00:12:58

yeah

[robert]: 00:12:58

of it in terms of the movies if they're giving plot if they're giving purpose

[robert]: 00:13:02

if they're adding to a character's back

lewis]: 00:13:04

yeah

[robert]: 00:13:04

story if they're if they have

weyland]: 00:13:06

oh

[robert]: 00:13:07

written lines in the

weyland]: 00:13:08

oh

[robert]: 00:13:08

script of the movie then yeah they need to feel like they have that moment

[robert]: 00:13:13

to speak they need that

lewis]: 00:13:14

yeah

[robert]: 00:13:15

that uniqueness so that they are actually a character

weyland]: 00:13:20

that's great

lewis]: 00:13:21

that's really insightful if i can add um the way you phrased it kind of

lewis]: 00:13:27

it made me kind of put myself in the play of

weyland]: 00:13:31

m

lewis]: 00:13:31

the players as if you know i go to a restaurant and the waiter sometimes

lewis]: 00:13:36

they come up an they're like what do you have today and then we order

lewis]: 00:13:38

and and then that's at other times they are super interactive

[robert]: 00:13:41

hm

lewis]: 00:13:42

and it probably based on the place they're at or other times the people i'm

lewis]: 00:13:46

with are very interactive with the waiter and things like that so i think one

lewis]: 00:13:50

thing to add to that kind of conversation is that maybe if you're struggling talking

lewis]: 00:13:55

to the listener here if you're struggling with figuring out how to make your p

lewis]: 00:14:00

cs feel life like which ones need to kind of think about your own life

lewis]: 00:14:04

and the interactions you have with your own plot as it were

weyland]: 00:14:08

oh

lewis]: 00:14:08

you know interact with the people at work a whole lot

[robert]: 00:14:10

hm

lewis]: 00:14:10

more versus people at rest ants are people driving on the side of the road

[robert]: 00:14:14

right and i think another kind of little trick that i use before i worry

[robert]: 00:14:18

about if i'm going to give them a voice or a cork or personality trades

[robert]: 00:14:21

or all this is do the players even need to remember this

weyland]: 00:14:25

oh

[robert]: 00:14:25

person's name and if the answer is no then i probably don't need to put

[robert]: 00:14:29

that much information

lewis]: 00:14:30

oh

[robert]: 00:14:31

or that much work into making that that character dynamic so i want to put

[robert]: 00:14:35

my energy more towards the ones that are important and do have a piece of

[robert]: 00:14:39

the story that's part of their back story

weyland]: 00:14:43

yeah exactly like i find that with one shot sessions

lewis]: 00:14:48

m

weyland]: 00:14:49

i learned the most about making enpcs because they're essentially all throw aways but you're

weyland]: 00:14:53

like okay at least two

lewis]: 00:14:55

oh

weyland]: 00:14:55

of the people need to be memorable

[robert]: 00:14:56

right

weyland]: 00:14:56

right most often right

lewis]: 00:14:58

yeah

weyland]: 00:15:00

and so like the last session that i ran on saturday you know i was

weyland]: 00:15:06

having the same issue were as like okay do i do a weird voice

[robert]: 00:15:10

uh

weyland]: 00:15:10

or something

[robert]: 00:15:11

uh yeah

weyland]: 00:15:12

now and and for the most part i found that i didn't need to and

[robert]: 00:15:17

right

weyland]: 00:15:17

the story went well i think that there's because there's so

lewis]: 00:15:21

yeah

weyland]: 00:15:21

many excellent podcasts

lewis]: 00:15:23

ye

weyland]: 00:15:23

streams out there where you know these are professionals who put a lot of a

weyland]: 00:15:29

lot of work and every n p c feels amazing

[robert]: 00:15:31

yeah

weyland]: 00:15:32

i think that sometimes for us the more layman you know d ms or g

weyland]: 00:15:37

ms we we feel like we need the same it's like no you know just

weyland]: 00:15:41

put as much effort as you're able to and make a certain number of n

weyland]: 00:15:45

p c is memorable the other ones it's okay if it's filler

[robert]: 00:15:47

and like in in one shot game like you're talking about you're right there's only

[robert]: 00:15:52

really a few mpcs that really need to have that but those are going to

[robert]: 00:15:55

be like your quest

lewis]: 00:15:56

ah

[robert]: 00:15:56

givers right or your people who are giving you hints to the plot um or

[robert]: 00:16:01

or a plot hook or something like that but yeah on your other point

weyland]: 00:16:05

yeah

[robert]: 00:16:06

like the professional voice actors like matt mercer and critical role and

lewis]: 00:16:10

yah

[robert]: 00:16:10

one of the things that just constantly amazes me when i listen to that show

[robert]: 00:16:14

is how matt can have an entire

lewis]: 00:16:16

h

[robert]: 00:16:17

race of creatures like like when they're in their dwarf in city everyone of his

[robert]: 00:16:22

dwarfs sounds a little bit different than and so you can pick up like that's

[robert]: 00:16:27

that's incredible to not just okay here's the accident i use for dwarfs he's got

[robert]: 00:16:32

like twenty accents

lewis]: 00:16:32

yeah

[robert]: 00:16:33

that he uses for dwarfs so they still also in similar but still unique and

[robert]: 00:16:37

that's a very very difficult ask for a person who is not a professional voice

[robert]: 00:16:41

actor but at the same you can do that same kind of thing without using

[robert]: 00:16:46

voices just by giving them patterns of speech or catch phrases that they use that

[robert]: 00:16:52

are different from anyone else so as you're making your notes for you m p

[robert]: 00:16:55

c is instead of saying okay this can have my my typical dwarf in voice

[robert]: 00:16:59

that i use but they can take a lot of long pauses in between answers

[robert]: 00:17:04

where they can sit there and always tap their face or rub their beer you

[robert]: 00:17:09

know that can have something quirky about them that you don't necessarily have to know

[robert]: 00:17:14

twenty different darvan voices you can just have one or two different inflections and different

[robert]: 00:17:20

things that make them look like different characters you know is just little stuff like

[robert]: 00:17:24

that i think an can go a long

lewis]: 00:17:26

um

[robert]: 00:17:26

way

weyland]: 00:17:27

yeah

lewis]: 00:17:30

h one thing that might help the listeners if you're struggling thinking about some of

lewis]: 00:17:37

these things to add to your characters i would say the best thing is to

lewis]: 00:17:43

start looking at your interactions with people like it's kind of a joke between me

lewis]: 00:17:46

and my wife that whenever we go over to my family's house my mom and

lewis]: 00:17:50

my sisters always say it will be good for some reason that's just like their

lewis]: 00:17:54

thing

[robert]: 00:17:54

yeah

lewis]: 00:17:54

like when they're done talk an they're like yeah we're going to go here we're

lewis]: 00:17:57

gonna go do this it'll be good

[robert]: 00:17:58

right

lewis]: 00:17:59

and we kind of make fun of them for that until i started noticing in

lewis]: 00:18:02

my interactions with my dad i have a catch phrase apparently where he says something

lewis]: 00:18:06

very dadjokish and then i say oh dad

[robert]: 00:18:09

uh

lewis]: 00:18:10

and he actually loves it now because he thinks it's really funny but if or

lewis]: 00:18:13

an m p c that would essentially be my catch ray so i found it

lewis]: 00:18:18

useful to start looking at interactions with people and start seeing some of these commonalities

lewis]: 00:18:22

but i mean you do have to kind of step back from the conversation wild

lewis]: 00:18:25

present which is somewhat difficult

[robert]: 00:18:26

hm

lewis]: 00:18:26

but that might be of use

[robert]: 00:18:28

yeah i mean you definitely bring up a good point because in all your interactions

[robert]: 00:18:32

with people you find that everybody has patterns of speech and everybody has little things

[robert]: 00:18:35

that they say to especially in terms of like if they're feeling nervous don't know

[robert]: 00:18:40

what to say the kind of fall back into those habitual patterns speaking

lewis]: 00:18:45

ah

weyland]: 00:18:46

yeah exactly and

lewis]: 00:18:48

for

weyland]: 00:18:48

i think

lewis]: 00:18:48

sure

weyland]: 00:18:48

that that's

[robert]: 00:18:49

m

weyland]: 00:18:50

that's the nice thing is that if you have no experience with it don't worry

weyland]: 00:18:55

about accents don't worry about anything

[robert]: 00:18:56

hm

weyland]: 00:18:56

like that just worry like hey

lewis]: 00:18:58

yeah

weyland]: 00:19:00

treat yourself and your many

lewis]: 00:19:01

yeah

weyland]: 00:19:01

different facets as different people you know

[robert]: 00:19:04

right

weyland]: 00:19:04

because we're all much more real and these npcs don't need to be as real

weyland]: 00:19:08

as one of us

lewis]: 00:19:09

oh

weyland]: 00:19:10

so we can kind of like almost take a little part ourselves and kind of

weyland]: 00:19:13

turned them

lewis]: 00:19:13

yeah

weyland]: 00:19:13

into

lewis]: 00:19:14

oh

weyland]: 00:19:14

the different linguistic or other aspects of them but

lewis]: 00:19:19

kay

weyland]: 00:19:20

so i had a question i find that you know when we're talking about making

weyland]: 00:19:24

realistic or memorable n p cs

lewis]: 00:19:27

yeah

weyland]: 00:19:29

i find that they get very

lewis]: 00:19:30

m

weyland]: 00:19:32

like in terms of motivations they can feel very one to like villains can feel

weyland]: 00:19:37

like oh they're just they're just destroying towns because why the heck not

[robert]: 00:19:41

right

weyland]: 00:19:41

and good people are like oh i apparently

lewis]: 00:19:43

uh

[robert]: 00:19:43

okay

weyland]: 00:19:44

just spend every men of my day thinking about how to help people

[robert]: 00:19:47

right

lewis]: 00:19:47

h

weyland]: 00:19:48

you know it's like how do you

lewis]: 00:19:49

oh

weyland]: 00:19:50

how do you make them not as one toned

[robert]: 00:19:53

so one thing that i've that i've done

lewis]: 00:19:55

oh

[robert]: 00:19:55

and i mentioned this in my book as well is i like to think of

[robert]: 00:19:59

my heroes as though they believe that my villains as though

lewis]: 00:20:03

yah

[robert]: 00:20:03

they believe they are the hero

lewis]: 00:20:04

h

[robert]: 00:20:05

our own story and i think that goes a long

lewis]: 00:20:07

oh

[robert]: 00:20:07

way in flashing out a good villain because i think the best villains

lewis]: 00:20:12

oh

[robert]: 00:20:13

usually in some way or another are right about what they're doing they're just probably

weyland]: 00:20:17

yeah

[robert]: 00:20:17

doing it in the wrong way i think you know like than

weyland]: 00:20:20

yeah

[robert]: 00:20:20

as from the marvel

lewis]: 00:20:21

yeah

[robert]: 00:20:22

world is a great example of that he's not wrong about you know the number

[robert]: 00:20:26

of resources being limited in the universe and people consuming them in the way that

[robert]: 00:20:31

humans you know kind of like ants destroyed the world that we're living on he's

[robert]: 00:20:35

not he's not wrong about that he's just

weyland]: 00:20:38

oh

[robert]: 00:20:38

going about it in the wrong way and so i think that

weyland]: 00:20:41

yeah

[robert]: 00:20:41

that's a good way to flash out a villain is to have them make a

[robert]: 00:20:45

point that is right make their their drive something that they could see themselves

lewis]: 00:20:51

yah

[robert]: 00:20:51

being heroic in doing

weyland]: 00:20:53

okay

[robert]: 00:20:53

but make it kind of obvious that if you're lacking some of the classic hero

[robert]: 00:20:58

traits of like empathy and understanding and concern for other people

lewis]: 00:21:02

yeah

[robert]: 00:21:02

you're obviously going to go about it the wrong way

lewis]: 00:21:08

so like two or three steps from being a hero that's like a pretty good

lewis]: 00:21:12

villain how do you kind of i guess the best way to say this is

lewis]: 00:21:20

how do you make heroes that aren't the players that like tana was saying don't

lewis]: 00:21:26

seem too good to show but don't also seem corrupt like how do you walk

lewis]: 00:21:30

that

[robert]: 00:21:30

i

lewis]: 00:21:30

balance

[robert]: 00:21:30

think it's just remembering that you know there's light and dark in everything and nobody

[robert]: 00:21:37

is like this perfect shining

lewis]: 00:21:38

yeah

[robert]: 00:21:38

example of goodness i think it's really one of the things i

lewis]: 00:21:43

oh

[robert]: 00:21:43

like to refer back to a lot is i don't

lewis]: 00:21:45

oh

[robert]: 00:21:45

know if you remember the old book of vile darkness from from dungeons and dragons

[robert]: 00:21:50

three point five but there's this really great image in there of

weyland]: 00:21:54

yeah

[robert]: 00:21:55

paladin standing over two female succubuses who are in an embrace of love and he's

[robert]: 00:22:02

standing over them with his sword and the caption underneath it reads something like paladin

[robert]: 00:22:08

must choose between honoring love and destroying evil and i think those kind of things

[robert]: 00:22:14

where you understand that

lewis]: 00:22:15

oh

[robert]: 00:22:16

all morality is is a spectrum and that even if you

lewis]: 00:22:21

oh

[robert]: 00:22:21

are a paladin it doesn't mean that you can't struggle with darkness even if you're

[robert]: 00:22:25

evil it doesn't mean you can't struggle with light kilo ren is a great example

[robert]: 00:22:29

of that he knows he's a villain and he's trying to extinguish being good from

[robert]: 00:22:34

himself because he thinks that villainy is the only way it's going to bring you

lewis]: 00:22:37

oh

[robert]: 00:22:37

know the entire universe together in peace so i think

weyland]: 00:22:41

oh

[robert]: 00:22:42

just like

lewis]: 00:22:42

oh

[robert]: 00:22:42

thinking

weyland]: 00:22:42

yeah

[robert]: 00:22:42

of things like that where

lewis]: 00:22:44

ah oh

[robert]: 00:22:44

they're like cleverly done and you can see both the good and the evil inside

[robert]: 00:22:49

a person and find ways to show case that as m p c is don't

weyland]: 00:22:53

oh

[robert]: 00:22:53

just make him be all like oh yeah ah i follow my goddess and i'm

[robert]: 00:22:57

like the perfect virtue of harmony and everything that she says i do m just

[robert]: 00:23:01

give them a little bit of humanity make them struggle with

lewis]: 00:23:05

yeah

[robert]: 00:23:05

my goddesses asking this of me or the priests are asking this of

lewis]: 00:23:08

oh

[robert]: 00:23:09

me but i just don't know if it's really what i should be doing is

[robert]: 00:23:13

person i think that kind of thing adds a lot of depth to an n

[robert]: 00:23:17

p c is seeing that they struggle with their own morality

weyland]: 00:23:22

oh

lewis]: 00:23:27

if it's okay i'd like to kind of dove tail the

weyland]: 00:23:30

oh

lewis]: 00:23:30

conversation um thus far

weyland]: 00:23:32

ah

lewis]: 00:23:32

we've kind of been talking mostly about preparing pss what strategies or techniques do you

lewis]: 00:23:39

use when you have to essentially create

[robert]: 00:23:40

yeah

lewis]: 00:23:40

an m p c on the fly

[robert]: 00:23:41

yeah

lewis]: 00:23:42

because the group decided to go a completely different way and now

[robert]: 00:23:46

yeah

lewis]: 00:23:46

they're super interested in guard at the town wall for no reason and you have

lewis]: 00:23:51

to essentially create everything you just said up on the spot what's your what's your

lewis]: 00:23:56

take

[robert]: 00:23:56

so that

lewis]: 00:23:56

on that

[robert]: 00:23:56

that's always the celis heel of every d m right is you have all these

lewis]: 00:24:00

oh

[robert]: 00:24:00

plans

weyland]: 00:24:00

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:01

and they only last until your characters have ideas

lewis]: 00:24:04

yeah oh

[robert]: 00:24:06

so i think

lewis]: 00:24:07

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:07

for me just practice like practice improvisation and i think

lewis]: 00:24:12

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:12

one of the best things to practice is coming up

lewis]: 00:24:14

a

[robert]: 00:24:14

with a name on

lewis]: 00:24:15

oh

[robert]: 00:24:15

the spot because that's what

weyland]: 00:24:16

ah

[robert]: 00:24:17

players always asked

weyland]: 00:24:17

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:17

like cool cool what's your

lewis]: 00:24:19

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:19

name and then you're away tuck in that like hold on let me look at

[robert]: 00:24:22

my name generator or something like this so a trick

lewis]: 00:24:24

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:24

i have always

lewis]: 00:24:25

oh

[robert]: 00:24:26

used and i'm sitting next to one of the

lewis]: 00:24:27

h

[robert]: 00:24:28

people who play in one of my games right now is and

lewis]: 00:24:30

m

[robert]: 00:24:30

i'm gonna give away one of my

weyland]: 00:24:31

ah

[robert]: 00:24:31

greatest

lewis]: 00:24:31

my

[robert]: 00:24:32

d tricks right now is i like scan the room really quick and piece

weyland]: 00:24:37

to

[robert]: 00:24:37

names of things together to come

weyland]: 00:24:39

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:39

up with a name

lewis]: 00:24:40

oh

[robert]: 00:24:40

like o oh there's a hammer over there and die okay well he's like that's

[robert]: 00:24:44

a so he's cube hammer he's lord cubehyou know just some something ridiculous like that

lewis]: 00:24:49

oh

[robert]: 00:24:49

but i mean even like i know i've made a character his name like ritz

[robert]: 00:24:54

before because there was a writ cracker box in the corner of the room

lewis]: 00:24:58

yeah

[robert]: 00:24:58

and so just like things like that pull from whatever you have available

lewis]: 00:25:03

oh

[robert]: 00:25:03

and then take notes like that's the biggest part of it if you are going

[robert]: 00:25:07

to create an n p up on the

lewis]: 00:25:08

oh

[robert]: 00:25:09

spot you got to make some notes as soon as you do it because if

[robert]: 00:25:13

you happen to create that smash in p

lewis]: 00:25:16

yah

[robert]: 00:25:16

c that they all love they're going to keep

lewis]: 00:25:17

yah

[robert]: 00:25:17

coming back to him and you're like why this guy was just something

weyland]: 00:25:21

yeah

[robert]: 00:25:21

i

lewis]: 00:25:21

yes

[robert]: 00:25:21

made up on the spot and they just want to keep hanging out with him

[robert]: 00:25:24

so you want to remember all of those things that they really

lewis]: 00:25:27

oh

[robert]: 00:25:27

thought were cool about him in the first place so that you're able to bring

[robert]: 00:25:30

him back and have them

lewis]: 00:25:30

yeah

[robert]: 00:25:30

still be as as influential to the party as they were the first time that

[robert]: 00:25:35

you played them

lewis]: 00:25:40

on one thing that i actually do another secret is i have often taken the

lewis]: 00:25:47

names of my players first or last and just put them backwards

[robert]: 00:25:50

nice

lewis]: 00:25:51

so

weyland]: 00:25:51

m

lewis]: 00:25:51

katon ottley who used to e used to do stuff on this podcast we have

lewis]: 00:25:57

a character who is katon's last name in the thing and i find that's really

lewis]: 00:26:02

easy because they don't they don't put together but super easy because you just pick

lewis]: 00:26:04

some one and say what's your name backwards the unfortunate thing is we have a

lewis]: 00:26:07

character player whose name is hannah you know it's

weyland]: 00:26:10

ah

lewis]: 00:26:10

the same front wards backwards so that

[robert]: 00:26:12

yeah

lewis]: 00:26:12

that doesn't work so actually on the on the topic of keeping track you know

lewis]: 00:26:21

van notes that was actually a question we were planning on asking because for me

lewis]: 00:26:26

that is super difficult so so what methods if any do you have for kind

lewis]: 00:26:30

of keeping track of these mpcs do you just kind of jot things down and

lewis]: 00:26:33

then come back or

[robert]: 00:26:35

you

lewis]: 00:26:35

how

[robert]: 00:26:35

know

lewis]: 00:26:35

do you go

[robert]: 00:26:35

i'm

lewis]: 00:26:35

about

[robert]: 00:26:35

actually

lewis]: 00:26:35

that

[robert]: 00:26:36

actually love that you ask me this question because

lewis]: 00:26:38

yeah

[robert]: 00:26:39

actually built

lewis]: 00:26:40

oh

[robert]: 00:26:40

a d m tool that is available on amazon for

lewis]: 00:26:45

oh

[robert]: 00:26:45

just a couple but it's just

lewis]: 00:26:46

oh

[robert]: 00:26:46

a book

weyland]: 00:26:47

oh

[robert]: 00:26:47

of n p c notes it's called the n p c compendium and you just

[robert]: 00:26:51

fill it in it's got like stat blocks and notes about character background

lewis]: 00:26:56

oh

[robert]: 00:26:56

the quirks that they use phrases that they use tattoos like it just

lewis]: 00:27:00

oh

[robert]: 00:27:00

gives you it's each one's a single page and there's a hundred to the book

[robert]: 00:27:05

and so that's what i like to use and i give it to any of

[robert]: 00:27:07

the d ms who

lewis]: 00:27:08

oh

[robert]: 00:27:08

run games for me um just as like a tool for them to have because

[robert]: 00:27:12

it is really useful and there's a table of contents in the front that you

[robert]: 00:27:16

can put the names of all the characters and what pages they're listed on so

[robert]: 00:27:19

that then

lewis]: 00:27:20

oh

[robert]: 00:27:20

you can go back and flip

weyland]: 00:27:21

kay

[robert]: 00:27:21

through and find s p

lewis]: 00:27:22

m

[robert]: 00:27:22

c is really easy and i think

lewis]: 00:27:23

oh

[robert]: 00:27:23

just even if you don't use that tool something like that is really helpful like

[robert]: 00:27:28

just having a notebook dedicated to your npcs is going to be really useful but

[robert]: 00:27:33

also get in the habit of making the same

lewis]: 00:27:35

oh

[robert]: 00:27:35

notes about each m p c so like you're always going to list how do

[robert]: 00:27:38

they sound how do they look how do they act around the players and

lewis]: 00:27:43

ah

[robert]: 00:27:43

i think always like

weyland]: 00:27:44

oh

[robert]: 00:27:44

listening are they a or foe of the party and do they have any secret

[robert]: 00:27:48

motivations that the party don't know

lewis]: 00:27:50

a

[robert]: 00:27:50

doesn't

lewis]: 00:27:50

yah

[robert]: 00:27:50

know about and i think those kind of things are really important to keep

lewis]: 00:27:53

h

[robert]: 00:27:53

track of

weyland]: 00:27:55

yeah that's great it's great advice especially the idea of just kind of keeping it

weyland]: 00:28:01

a similar format

lewis]: 00:28:02

yah

weyland]: 00:28:02

you know so

[robert]: 00:28:02

hm

weyland]: 00:28:02

you can almost have a rollo dex

lewis]: 00:28:04

h

weyland]: 00:28:05

kind of

[robert]: 00:28:05

yeah

weyland]: 00:28:05

dilio

[robert]: 00:28:05

exactly

weyland]: 00:28:06

for that because i think some people just don't realize it's like hey just because

weyland]: 00:28:12

you use n p cs in different ways it doesn't mean that you know it

weyland]: 00:28:17

wouldn't be helpful they know the same thing about them especially your accents my goodness

[robert]: 00:28:21

right yeah

weyland]: 00:28:21

you know

[robert]: 00:28:22

and that's a big one too because you might

lewis]: 00:28:23

yeah

[robert]: 00:28:24

pull off an accent when you first

lewis]: 00:28:25

oh

[robert]: 00:28:26

introduce an m p c if you don't write that down when

lewis]: 00:28:29

oh

[robert]: 00:28:29

you come back to it you can be like what voice was that

lewis]: 00:28:31

oh

[robert]: 00:28:31

using for this person and just

lewis]: 00:28:34

ah

[robert]: 00:28:34

not be able to give the same experience if you don't have it notated somewhere

weyland]: 00:28:38

yeah and in cases like that honestly what i'd recommend i have a friend who

weyland]: 00:28:42

is very good with accents

lewis]: 00:28:43

ah

weyland]: 00:28:44

and he says

lewis]: 00:28:45

oh

weyland]: 00:28:45

that for him he kind of needs a phrase to work his into it

[robert]: 00:28:50

i do the same thing absolutely

weyland]: 00:28:52

exactly

[robert]: 00:28:52

yeah

weyland]: 00:28:53

right so like when you're writing down the accent don't

[robert]: 00:28:56

yeah

weyland]: 00:28:56

just say oh it's this kind of accent be like phrase this

[robert]: 00:28:59

yep

weyland]: 00:28:59

is how you work your way into it

[robert]: 00:29:01

yea for the longest time whenever i

weyland]: 00:29:02

yeah

[robert]: 00:29:02

had a dwarf

lewis]: 00:29:03

yeah

[robert]: 00:29:03

i would have to start their conversation by saying great because that was the only

[robert]: 00:29:08

way that could get me into like oh that's great you know like it had

weyland]: 00:29:11

yeah

[robert]: 00:29:12

to it had to have that word in there somewhere like it's a

lewis]: 00:29:15

classic

[robert]: 00:29:15

great day out here you know and then then i can roll into it

lewis]: 00:29:18

yah

[robert]: 00:29:18

after that but i had to start

lewis]: 00:29:20

yeah

[robert]: 00:29:20

every interaction with a dwarf early on with that word because it was my

weyland]: 00:29:23

yeah

[robert]: 00:29:24

key word to get

lewis]: 00:29:24

yeah

[robert]: 00:29:24

into the accident i think that works really well

lewis]: 00:29:27

oh

weyland]: 00:29:28

exactly

lewis]: 00:29:30

that's awesome one actually one other i guess hack that you could probably use with

lewis]: 00:29:35

that roledecx in conjunction with your compendium is you know in different situations you could

lewis]: 00:29:41

probab take some of these npcs obviously from campaign to campaign or session of session

lewis]: 00:29:46

or whatever um and take the same n p c change the name and maybe

lewis]: 00:29:51

the accent keep the character six i guess obviously any you know identifying features but

lewis]: 00:29:57

essentially play them the same way so that way you don't have to necessarily come

lewis]: 00:30:00

up with a completely new character maybe all the bartenders are exactly the same they

lewis]: 00:30:06

all you know one one serves vodka versus

[robert]: 00:30:09

m

lewis]: 00:30:09

one serves ale primarily and you know um just so that way d ms who

lewis]: 00:30:14

don't have as much time they don't they don't feel as pressured too create you

lewis]: 00:30:18

know a full world that they still have these resources and you know i guess

lewis]: 00:30:22

the idea is you don't have to create completely new m

[robert]: 00:30:24

right

lewis]: 00:30:24

p s every time you can just maybe take one change one or two things

lewis]: 00:30:28

and then move

[robert]: 00:30:28

and

lewis]: 00:30:28

forward

[robert]: 00:30:28

in a pinch

lewis]: 00:30:29

you know

[robert]: 00:30:29

you know you can always rely on a generator to pull that up i

lewis]: 00:30:32

yeah

[robert]: 00:30:32

mean there's ones that have just like m

lewis]: 00:30:34

sure

[robert]: 00:30:34

p c description generators are very useful in just coming up like with quick back

[robert]: 00:30:39

stories or quirks

weyland]: 00:30:40

ah

lewis]: 00:30:40

m

[robert]: 00:30:40

at some he has and i've definitely used those in a pinch especially when characters

[robert]: 00:30:45

are running off on their own and just like hey we want to interact with

[robert]: 00:30:48

another m p c and you're like okay

weyland]: 00:30:50

oh

lewis]: 00:30:50

yeah

[robert]: 00:30:52

yep

lewis]: 00:30:53

you're like sure whatever um well robert we are coming down to the end of

lewis]: 00:30:57

our time together unfortunately we will definitely have to do this again so well we'll

lewis]: 00:31:02

re connect figure out another time because i'm actually really interested specifically in creating a

lewis]: 00:31:07

murder mystery but

[robert]: 00:31:09

awesome

lewis]: 00:31:09

we'll have to schedule that another time m final words for our audience from tanner

lewis]: 00:31:14

myself you robert and then we'll give you a chance to talk to them about

lewis]: 00:31:17

how they can reach out to you support you see what you're up to m

lewis]: 00:31:21

tanner

weyland]: 00:31:21

yeah

lewis]: 00:31:21

d you want to go first that way robert

weyland]: 00:31:22

absolutely

lewis]: 00:31:22

can have some time to think

weyland]: 00:31:24

with n p

lewis]: 00:31:24

oh

weyland]: 00:31:24

c s i think the biggest thing is just making sure

lewis]: 00:31:27

a

weyland]: 00:31:28

quality kind of trumps quantity it's better to have

lewis]: 00:31:34

oh

weyland]: 00:31:34

one uh character that you've really worked on that's like really funny versus a few

weyland]: 00:31:39

that's like semi funny and same for like one character that you really connect with

lewis]: 00:31:44

oh

weyland]: 00:31:44

versus

[robert]: 00:31:44

m

weyland]: 00:31:44

a few that's like oh they're just generally people i guess you can sympathize with

weyland]: 00:31:48

you know just put in the time um and then do filler for the rest

weyland]: 00:31:53

people expect filler what they don't expect is for you to just knock them off

weyland]: 00:31:57

your off

[robert]: 00:31:57

m

weyland]: 00:31:57

their

lewis]: 00:31:58

yeah

weyland]: 00:31:58

feet

[robert]: 00:31:58

m

weyland]: 00:31:58

well just a really good character

[robert]: 00:32:00

hm

lewis]: 00:32:03

and then i'll go next robert

[robert]: 00:32:05

ah

lewis]: 00:32:05

just so you have just as much time as you want to think and really

lewis]: 00:32:08

prepare one thing i would say is kind of thinking about this all today there's

lewis]: 00:32:14

nothing wrong with just pick people you know in real life and fashioning pss after

lewis]: 00:32:18

those people now that i think about it i think that's something that i really

lewis]: 00:32:22

want to try moving forward for the next little bit just

weyland]: 00:32:24

yeah

lewis]: 00:32:25

to really focus in on what are their call real life corks how do those

lewis]: 00:32:29

come across you know even in small interactions how can i you know put my

lewis]: 00:32:33

dad into you know into d and d with some of his small little quirks

lewis]: 00:32:38

and just kind of personify and i think that will hopefully make me better at

weyland]: 00:32:42

ah

lewis]: 00:32:42

creating npcs and picking up on those those nuances but also making a little bit

lewis]: 00:32:47

more interesting in life like so that's that's one thing i'm going to try and

lewis]: 00:32:50

i would recommend that the listener also try so robert final words for

[robert]: 00:32:53

i would

lewis]: 00:32:53

our

[robert]: 00:32:53

just say

lewis]: 00:32:54

adventurers

[robert]: 00:32:54

one idea that i've played with a few times in the past and has been

[robert]: 00:32:57

really fun that i would suggest maybe giving a shot is when you're having like

[robert]: 00:33:03

your session zero or your characters are building there stores let each one of your

[robert]: 00:33:07

players write an

lewis]: 00:33:08

oh

[robert]: 00:33:08

n p c as well and then give that to you to just put into

[robert]: 00:33:13

the game somewhere later on it can be really fun and it makes that n

[robert]: 00:33:16

p c ver meaningful to the

lewis]: 00:33:18

oh

[robert]: 00:33:18

players when they were like oh

lewis]: 00:33:20

yes

[robert]: 00:33:20

that's that's crazy farmer joe that's the one that i wrote

lewis]: 00:33:23

yeah

[robert]: 00:33:23

you know and and then they get

weyland]: 00:33:24

yeah

[robert]: 00:33:24

to

lewis]: 00:33:24

yes

[robert]: 00:33:24

see that and interact with it and it just

lewis]: 00:33:26

a

[robert]: 00:33:26

kind of

lewis]: 00:33:26

m

[robert]: 00:33:27

brings their attention

lewis]: 00:33:27

yeah

[robert]: 00:33:28

right to the table so i just think that kind of a fun and unique

[robert]: 00:33:31

way that

lewis]: 00:33:31

yeah

[robert]: 00:33:31

you guys might want to try it it's been

weyland]: 00:33:33

ye

[robert]: 00:33:33

pretty interesting when i've done it in the past

lewis]: 00:33:35

oh

weyland]: 00:33:37

i love that

lewis]: 00:33:38

i love that anything to help our d ms save time and save money and

lewis]: 00:33:43

i think outsourcing the work to the players is like top

[robert]: 00:33:46

agreed

lewis]: 00:33:46

of the list on that but thank you so much for being here with us

lewis]: 00:33:49

robert how can our audience reach out to you support you and see what

[robert]: 00:33:52

yeah

lewis]: 00:33:52

you're doing

[robert]: 00:33:53

thanks for asking you can definitely check out my book session zero the m g

[robert]: 00:33:57

to writing great campaigns

lewis]: 00:33:58

ah

[robert]: 00:33:59

in any system you can

lewis]: 00:34:00

ah

[robert]: 00:34:00

find that on amazon also check out my pod as it's the dungeons dragons and

[robert]: 00:34:06

psychology podcast and you can find that wherever you find any podcast it's on all

[robert]: 00:34:10

the platforms

lewis]: 00:34:11

yeah

[robert]: 00:34:12

and the best place to get in touch with me personally is v email dungeon

[robert]: 00:34:17

dragon psychology at email dot com or on instagram and it's at dungeons underscore dragons

[robert]: 00:34:23

underscore psychology

lewis]: 00:34:26

m oh

weyland]: 00:34:27

perfect

lewis]: 00:34:28

excellent we will get all those up in the show notes as well as the

lewis]: 00:34:32

link to your n p c compendium we don't want o forget that but thank

lewis]: 00:34:37

you so much robert thanks tanner for being here listener adventurer will be here next

lewis]: 00:34:42

week for another great show until then let's go ahead and roll initiative

[robert]: 00:34:46

thank you

lewis]: 00:34:46

some

[robert]: 00:34:47

guys

lewis]: 00:34:48

thanks so much robert i guess i should stop recording

weyland]: 00:34:50

uh

lewis]: 00:34:50

um

weyland]: 00:34:51

h